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Talk:Dragon Ball GT
DBGT is Canon remove the debate of canon or non canon.....its Canon wether u want it to be or not. akira toyrima...if it was non canon it would be like DBAF but its NOT....it wouldnt be apart of the video games but it is...AKira toyrima has nothin against it he aproved...about the manga its not aprt of but the tv Series it is SO give it up...stop trying to pretend it dosent exist or that its fake if it was fake akira toyrima would not have come in to do work on it from time to time....which is why its should be remved from the article. :"Canon" doesn't meant to exist or not, but if it was or not created by the author. ::@Last comment: that is incorrect. 02:59, March 2, 2010 (UTC) How do you figure it's canon? DBGT now seems less canon than originally thought with the release of Dragon Ball Online and it was thought poorly of by many fans to begin with. One big reason I'd say that suggests it's not canon is the fact that Majin Buu fuses with Uub perminately, so Majin Buu doesn't really 'exist' anymore.. However in Dragon Ball Online, in the 790 Age Buu specifically exists because he creates 'Booby' and through Booby creates the Majin race.. This conflicts with Dragon Ball GT claiming that Buu fused with Uub in Age 789. Akira Toriyama seems to be working more closely with Dragon Ball Online than GT so I'd say that's pretty much a tell-tale sign of which Toriyama considers 'canon'.. But that's just my opinion. PS: Adding in two other cents, I don't in any way, shape, or form 'hate' Dragon Ball GT, I'm not saying I don't believe it's canon just because I hate it, I've watched it many times and enjoyed it for what it is.. But I think Dragon Ball GT judging by Toriyama's treatment of the subject, show, and all things involved about it that it is simply like the Dragon Ball Z movies, not meant to be 'canon', they're simply 'what if' stories, a little more Dragon Ball for us to enjoy but not part of the actual continuity. JadeTora 09:17, August 20, 2010 (UTC) Jade :There are many reasons we consider DBGT to be canon (a decision essentially up to each person individually) on this site. The most important reason it is considered canon is that it was a major anime series which was developed by a group of writers which including Toriyama, who approved of all of the major plot. Dragon Ball Online is a fairly new video game, and in the past, Dragon Ball videos games have been far less reliable in terms of accuracy than the anime, both with respect to the manga. As for using an inconsistency between DBGT and Dragon Ball Online as an argument, it works just as easily in the other direction. The same is true of inconsistencies between some movies and the anime series, and in most cases we consider the non-anime source to be some sort of alternate timeline or whatnot. 08:01, August 21, 2010 (UTC) Toriyama has been more involved with the DBO Video Game than he was with DBGT, if that's your measure of canon, but obviously that's an extremely silly measure of canon. Toriyama also had a hand in almost every single one of the DB movies, including writing the entire plot for some, and doing all the character designs for others, but they are all considered universally non-canon. What makes GT non-canon isn't plot holes (although many of them are ignored on the official page), as those are normal for all DB series. What makes it non-canon for me is simply that it is not a serialized manga licensed by shounen jump and thus part of the print Dragon Ball franchise which the two anime only existed to mimmic. Now, that said, you people take this crap way too seriously. It's such a simple franchise, and it's full of plot holes and incosistencies anyway. It exists to be fun and explosive and silly, and if you found GT to be enjoyable, great! Consider it canon for you, and if you don't, then don't, but there will never be a consensus on this topic. Personally, my favorite thing in the DB franchise is the first two Broly movies (not counting the horrendous Bio-Broly) which is decidedly non-canon. 01:40, December 10, 2010 (UTC) naz :You have some very interesting opinions that you have stated here, and you are entitled to them. However, for the purposes of this encyclopedic site, we provide only information which is affirmed by substantial evidence, which guides us to our conventions. I hope you can enjoy the site in any case. 04:08, December 10, 2010 (UTC) toriyama worked on the art for ssj4 not the storyline :False, but please sign your posts anyway. 01:03, June 8, 2011 (UTC) But it is a non canon Dragon Ball GT was critizited by not just the fans but by other companies for thier childish fights and the goofy character designs (including trunks' character designs)thats why it was so short the ratings weren't as high as dragon ball or dragon ball Z Gohan fan101 23:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)gohanfan101Gohan fan101 23:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC) :Just because it is critisized dosent make it non canon u need to understand that....that like saying i dont like pokemon dimond a pearl so that it i say its not canon it dosent work that way. DBGT is Canon an if it is non canon how come i dont see DBAF characters in games because thats non canoN, but DBGT is Canon....just because it wasent as good as Dbz in your opinion or opinion in others you cannot say its non cannon....it Simply is The fact that Dragon Ball Kai removes most of what is anime-only filler will probably mean that Dragon Ball GT will be retconned out of existence. There should not be a section cover a debate over its canonocity, but there should be a section cover the plot holes and inconsistencies. :To Everyone: Please do not remove sections from articles without consensus, with the exception of vandalism. Please keep a Neutral point of view when editing articles. Some believe GT is canon, others do not, and the article should reflect this. To voice your opinion on this matter, comment on the forum, do not change the articles. No matter how bad you think GT is, everyone is entitled to the truth. Finally, please Sign your posts, or your comments will most likely be ignored. Thank you for your cooperation. 21:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC) if you have facts and evidence that gt is or is not canon then we have the right to debate it.if we can prove that gt is or is not canon though facts then that section can be removed.as for my point is that gt is canon because some people say its because of the plot holes but i can explain alot of the plotholes.second of all people say its because there is no manga well i dont even get that one because why is the manga so important.thats like saying that becuase pan doesent go super saiyan.its just something they didnt want to do.people say akaira toryamai didnt make it so its not canon:untrue,he came up with the BASE plot and he desighned super saiyan 4 and how pan would look.so although he didnt do as much of the work as he did on z or the origanal seris he still helped make it.even though i did that im not going to delete the section because we are not gonna do that until someone wins the agruement.feel free to argue with me all you want because i want that BRING IT ON!until then THE SECTION STAYS AND REMOVE THE PART WHERE IT SAYS IT WASENT WRITTEN BY AKAIRA TORYAMAI BECAUSE HE DID COME UP WITH THE BASE PLOT!Wowfunny251andwowfunneyanderasa 15:58, March 13, 2010 (UTC) :Just because characters apear in games doesn't make it Canon, movie villains all apear in the games, but the movies are not considered canon. also while toriyama did draw the super saiyan 4 design he did little else with GT. And Wowfunny251andwowfunneyanderasa, 'the reason the manga is important is because THAT was the ORIGINAL story, the one that toriyama started, he wrote completely. the Anime is an adaption, the manga is ALWAYS important 02:48, March 19, 2010 (UTC)' Toriyama oversaw all of GT, 220.237.141.80, you appear to be mistaken. 03:30, March 19, 2010 (UTC) "Unlike the Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, series creator Akira Toriyama had only''' minor involvement''' in the show's early stages, setting forth the initial premise of the series, as well as creating designs for most of the villains and main characters , including newcomer Giru.". Seems like you are mistaken 19:28, May 31, 2010 (UTC) I would say GT is canon....to the anime. GT can't be canon to the manga or the original story since it wasn't created by the original creator, so it can't be canon to the original story. But to say it is not canon to the anime, that makes no sense. It exist in the anime, therefore it's canon in the animated series. Fillers are also canon to the anime since it appears in the anime, but they are not canon to the manga since they don't exist in the manga. YoungTopGunn 15:56, February 19, 2011 (UTC) Reception This section needs to continue to be tweaked. Much of the material in this section is just an angry fan pointing out things he/she doesn't like, rather than the critical reception of the series. There need to be authorities on the matter, polls, or websites (like IGN) referenced for any of this to be valid. Unlike other articles, which can be checked by watching/reading over events, a reception section is useless without references. 09:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC) :If there aren't any references made for the reception section, or reasonable explanations for why I shouldn't, I plan on deleting the marked ( ) statements in a few days. Just figured I'd post my intent in the discussion first, so no one is surprised later. 20:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC) Super Saiyan Should it be noted that no one in the series with the exception of Goku, and later vegeta for ss4, goes beyong ss1? No one to my knowleged goes ss2 as that has lightning and spikier hair with is not seen anywhere in the entire series. :Things that don't happen usually aren't specifically included in articles. 08:39, December 5, 2009 (UTC) Gohan and Vegeta also went SS2. It's obvious. They didn't always animate the bio-electricity, but other sources and evidence in the anime secures it. Remember Majin Vegeta had lightning in his aura? and Teen Gohan against Cell? Goku wasn't even the first to become a SS2 so your point is very flawed anyway. (Banan14kab 03:05, March 2, 2010 (UTC)) Goku did power up as a Super Saiyan 2 for a few seconds when he fought General Rilldo to repel an attack. As for Gohan and Vegeta there was no visual or verbal indication they were Super Saiyan 2. It is logical, but there is no evidence. Goku was easy to tell because of the lightning aura and spikier hair but Gohan and Vegeta never had those traits.Super Saiyan Historian 07:17, August 9, 2010 (UTC) A plothole? Another sort of plot hole in GT is, When at the end of the series, and beginning of the Goku's Legacy film, where Pan is grown up, and all the Z fighters are dead, Vegeta is amongst them. Saiyans are said to live up to 1,000 years, and unless Vageta died of a disease or something, he should still be alive. Could that be another reason why people consider GT to be non-canon? 23:30, June 26, 2011 (UTC) :Or maybe he self-destructed to save the world from some threat? 05:42, January 3, 2010 (UTC) : :Please Read This Why Dont You Read The Aticle Entitiled "Saiyan" It Says That Saiyans Live Up To 125 Years 01:50, July 6, 2010 (UTC) Alienrun 7:50 7/5/2010 : :Okay I can't remember where I heard it but I was positive that I heard on Dragon Ball Z that Saiyans live up to 1,000 years. I'm aware that I was wrong about what I heard. And no, I'm not confusing this with the story of them maintaining their youthful appearance. 23:30, June 26, 2011 (UTC) GT GT inconsistencies: I've watched all the DVDs from DB all the way through to the end of GT(I have no life, I know). Anyway, in regards to inconsistencies over dragonball GT and the rest of the series. In no less then 4 occasions, Goku gets some or most of his spiky hair cut off due to an enemy wielding a weapon of some type, but his hair always returns to normal by the next episode/movie/appearance. So i would say that the issue about hair not changing is that it stays in the same style for their entire lives. So vegeta's hair naturally grew out into it's infamous shape, but he can easily cut it but it'll still grow back to it's original length. As well, in regards to Pilaf's return. According to Funimation (i know it's slightly flakey), Dende wished everyone on earth "except the most evil ones" back to life. So Pilaf was evil, yes we can all agree, but he certainly wasn't the _most_ evil being on the planet. His goal was to be worshipped and to rule over the world, some of the more evil beings wanted death, destruction and decay. With the Black Star Dragonballs, they were hiding in the lookout, in dragonball Pilaf was shown to be able to disguise the dragonballs from the dragon radar in two occasions. Ingestion by King Piccolo also showed that they could hide the RADAR readings. So one can easily assume the mausoleum that Kami placed the balls in was designed to HIDE the balls forever. Pilaf himself stated it took a lot of research to figure out where they were which suggests that his own radar was useless. But there is a NEW inconsistency that I'd like to add. In dragonball, Korin explains that noone can reach the lookout unless the guardian lets them. No rocket can reach that high, no plane has enough fuel, noone who climbed up and was unwelcome saw the lookout. Pilaf and the rest should not have been able to reach the lookout at all unless Dende let them in.(Buu was an exception obviously, he was much stronger then Dende so would have been able to shakeoff anything that Dende would use to protect the lookout, Pilaf was nowhere near that powerful. - 03:34, 29 June 2009 (UTC) :For one, Goku and Uub were training so Dende was focused on them. Another thing is if characters could fly up to the Lookout and ships can go into space, than Pilaf would have no trouble getting up there. Super Saiyan Historian 20:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC) King Kai's explanation of Saiyan history was that the Saiyans and Tuffles shared the Planet Vegeta, not the Saiyans invading the Tuffles' planet. That would have been impossible anyway because the Saiyans did not possess the technology to travel between planets until after they destroyed the Tuffles. This inconsistency is ignored on this wiki and it shouldn't be. That was filler. No where stated in the manga and not in Dragon Ball Kai either. Its possible that GT can be right that the Saiyans migrated to Planet Tuffle and lived on the outskirts for several years. The Saiyans waged war against the Tuffles. After years of fighting, the tide turned and the moon emerged in the skyline. The Saiyans would secure an easy victory from there. Super Saiyan Historian 20:57, August 2, 2010 (UTC) People....seriously....these little things in GT do not matter.This is way too picke.GT is still a good show.Its not like they messed everything up.most of the little plot holes can be explained anyway.Akaira toryamai did do GT's BASE plot.GT is canon regardless of inconsistencies that can be explained anyway'... 20:28, April 11, 2010 (UTC)' :It's not canon anywhere, its full of plot holes and was not made by Akira Toriyama. I guess fan fiction is canon too? That wasn't made by AT 19:32, May 31, 2010 (UTC) Actually he did, and fan fiction is not canon. 19:47, May 31, 2010 (UTC) :I'm just going to go over one plothole that everyone seems to think is 'proof' that it isn't canon. That is, Gohan wasn't 'mystic'. Mystic brings you up to your maximum power and potential. That is, he could never become any stronger, no matter how hard he trained. Remember the seven year gap between Cell and Boo? He got weaker. Now we have a ten year gap, and he gets even weaker, thus, not at his maximum power and potential, THUS, he would not be 'mystic'. Also? Fix the grammar. You just contradicted yourself. You said that "mystic" brings you to you maximum power and potential and that he can't become and stronger. But your reason for why it's a plot hole in GT when he isn't "mystic" is that he got weaker again? That's not a plot hole. In fact, that's one of the things that makes the most sense about GT. Getting weaker, Gohan no longer had his mystic form and was forced to use the SS transformations once again. I would also challenge your view of who "everyone" is that you think also believes this. I think you need to check through facts and explanations a little closer. 17:55, July 22, 2010 (UTC) :Also, Gohan's "full potential" had been unlocked previously by Guru, but he obviously became stronger after that. I think a lot of people never consider that Gohan's potential likely increases over time. 22:25, July 22, 2010 (UTC) Gohan is seen going super saiyan in Wrath Of The Dragon which took place after the Buu Saga. The "mystic" is the same effect as Guru's unlock. People think that just because Elder Kai used Gohan's transformation ability to become mystic he can't become super saiyan not true. Not true, watch Wrath of the Dragon again. Gohan was mystic. He NEVER transformed into a Super Saiyan. I own the movie. Super Saiyan Historian 20:58, August 2, 2010 (UTC) :Also, it was never specifically stated that Gohan could never go Super Saiyan again. It's possible that the "Mystic form" could have simply just been a power boost and not a transformation so he could have still had the ability. 18:23, August 4, 2010 (UTC) Gohan asked Old Kai how to activate mystic and he said, just go SSJ. And we can clearly see he couldn't go SSJ. Mystic was drawn by magic, so for Gohan not having anymore for no reason really makes no sense. Also, what Guru did and what Old Kai did wasn't the same. Old Kai said only he had the ability to draw out anyone full potential, and beyond the normal limits. When goku said, that's it? We see that everday. Old Kai said, no, BEYOND the normal limits. So all Guru did was unlocked Gohan's full potential at that time, not go beyond. YoungTopGunn 16:08, February 19, 2011 (UTC) Canonicity Though Toriyama did not personally write GT, he did strictly oversee its production. This was the same process that was used during the production of the anime series ''Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. Characters and events from GT have also been included in more recent Dragon Ball video games. With regards to inconsistencies, GT in fact has the least inconsistencies of all three anime series, making it difficult to cite the few that exist as reason for the series to be set aside as non-canon.'' Who did wrote this? How can it have only "few" inconsistencies? Or Akira having "strictly" oversee its production? Ilovefoxes 10:24, August 14, 2010 (UTC) :It's been revised by many, many users. A full list can be found in the history. See our list of inconsistencies page for details on inconsistency. Toriyama approved all of the plot of GT, which would include things like the existence of the Black Star Dragon Balls that people so often complain about. 20:42, August 14, 2010 (UTC) Many do not consider it canon, many do. I belong to the group that doesn't think its canon. I don't need to say why, every reason I have was already stated above. What I'm here to say is that the GT page doesn't need anymore information about why we think its non canon. Everyone knows its a hot topic, but since the page already acknowledged that many fans consider it non canon no further information is necessary. Time is man made, so it's always 4:20 02:59, January 8, 2011 (UTC)Tokeupdude Canon to the anime, but not the manga I personally do not think it's considered Canon to the source material (and I think this should be noted, because that's how most encyclopedias work and it's not hard to mention that something is not canon to the source material even American Comic books do this in separating their animated universe from their source material). I think I read that it is considered an alternate future to Dragon Ball Z from TOEI so technically it is fair to say that it Canon to the cartoon, but not the manga as it was Toei's vision of the Dragon Ball GT. As for Toriyama's involvement. Well he delt mainly with a few character designs and less so on the story. In an article for Dragon Ball Online it states that it's (the game) based on the Manga universe so it actually does appear that GT is not a continuation of Dragon Ball Z in terms of the Manga, but rather just a continuation of Dragon Ball Z the Anime. Toriyama was not directly involved with GT,but Toriyama did give permission to do a third series. :Please sign all posts. Additionally, you should read out MoS, where we lay out the levels of canon as observed on the site. Finally, your information about Toei and Toriyama is not in line with information expressed by those parties, although if you present an official source we can certainly take a look. 05:49, March 1, 2011 (UTC) : :1000% agreed.How can anyone possibly tell you Dbgt is non canon to the anime when it even shows clips and flashbacks from db and dbz anime and refernces back to it that is completely illogical.It is a matter of fact GT is canon to the anime but NOT the manga.You can NOT say GT is non canon to all of Db just because it wasnt in the manga(Something it is not even apart of that is border line insanity) anyone with common sence knows that. 19:02, March 18, 2011 (UTC) Dragonball GT is canon to the anime YoungTopGunn hit the nail right on the head, each medium has its own canonicity. GT is obviously a canon contituation to the anime, the same as DBZ was to Dragonball. Whereas none of the anime only stuff is canon to the manga. Sure GT has plot holes when compared to Dragonball Z, but so does Dragonball when compared to Z, and it would be pretty ridiculous to pretend Dragonball isn't canon, and continue to support your original argument because DB and DBZ are simply known collectively as Dragonball in the manga. Regardless of what anyone thinks of GTs actualy quality, the fact of the matter is it's still canon to the anime, and apparently to most DBZ video games too. And for what it's worth I think GT was a pretty decent anime in its own right. Sure it is terrible when compared to Dragonball and Dragonball Z but if looked at seperately it is actually a pretty mediocre anime. 05:45, July 28, 2011 (UTC) Who wrote GT? The writer of GT was named once, but I cannot remember his name. Am I wrong, or was it that one guy who wrote it? Think if I went Super Saiyan my goatee would grow? 21:39, July 31, 2011 (UTC) :No one knows who you mean, obviously, but in any case there was definitely a team working on plot, storyboards, scripts, etc. 21:51, July 31, 2011 (UTC) : :I remember it being mentioned on a blog on this wiki, about GT. I was looking at some videos on GT, and I remember a confrence where they showed Akira Toryiama's character designs for the series, showing he had some involvment, (Yeah, he designed Vegeta with his infamous moustache.) And some other concept arts, but I can't remember the video. If I find it, I will post a link. Think if I went Super Saiyan my goatee would grow? 21:57, July 31, 2011 (UTC) Why is ice﻿ maker>cell and frieza? Plus, how did Goku kill Cell by blowing off his torso while in the anime (and manga) he survived that, and he also killed Frieza by chopping his body in half while Freiza survived being chopped into multiple pieces in Z. At the end they get frozen by an ice maker machine wt*frick*, they can't dodge snow now? GT has 3 chromosomes. Also, I thought once you have died, and you died again while dead, you are gone forever and nowhere. =/ not just immortal. and why is it that they have their bodies? again, i thought when you die, only specially picked people get to﻿ keep their bodies. everyone else is just a puff ball. Don't delete this because you can't prove it wrong kids. Changed my mildly adult langauge, sorry it offended you. 02:03, September 1, 2011 (UTC) :We don't mind that you're a kid, most people on the site probably are too. As far as the ice, is was special hell-ice that was intended to trap dead people, so it wouldn't make sense if they weren't stopped by it. Goku didn't kill Cell or Frieza in GT, you may have misunderstood the episode. Goku is much more powerful than either of them are (see Dragon Ball Z for details), and he happens to be much faster too by GT. Hell works differently than heaven, you can find out how this works by watching Z all the way through. 03:04, September 1, 2011 (UTC) Um, the machine didn't only freeze dead people. And what is even more inconsistent is the fact they couldn't dodge falling snow :/. And yeah Goku killed them, they explained they came back because they were already dead, but iirc if you die when your dead in Dragon Ball you disappear, they didn't say anything about a special Hell rule. And no base Goku would never ever surpass SS2 level, not even likely he'd surpass any Super Saiyan, he couldn't lift 40 sucking tons! Toei has been known for making nonsensical filler, such as saiyan Vegeta easily destroying a planet, all the movies, pretty much every inconsistency within the Dragon Ball Z anime, Goku and Pikkon easily defeating Cell RIGHT AFTER the Cell saga. If Goku could become 10x stronger than Cell by just training a tiny bit longer in the ROSAT then he would have, Akira never had that ridiculous story telling. GT, anime filler, it is best just to ignore, since not only is it inconsistent with the manga it is inconsistent with itself. 21:46, September 1, 2011 (UTC) :They explain the ice very thoroughly in the episode, and why it works on them but not Goku. It could not possibly be inconsistent since this technique only comes up during the one fight. As for hell/death, they don't explain the rule, exactly, I'm glad you figured it out. Your base Goku talk is speculation as Goku's child form's power was drastically changing due to the lack of stamina. Further, we have seen other human and saiyan characters in DBZ and DBGT surpass SS2 without transforming, both of which were weaker than Goku. Vegeta destroying a planet makes perfect sense, and is not in GT, so doesn't need mentioning on this talk page. When characters are dead their stamina is very different than when they are alive, this is explained in the latest third of DBZ. Goku states that he never planned to beat Cell, it was his intention for Gohan to do it all along. Please let me know if you have any other questions about DB, DBZ, or GT, preferably on the correct talk pages. Your opinion about not personally liking filler and GT is fine, but please understand that it is your own, and cannot and will not be forced on others. Everyone has the right to make up their own mind about what to "ignore," and as an editor here I ensure that every article is written with a neutral point of view. 23:54, September 1, 2011 (UTC) That may be my opinion that i don't like anime filler or GT, but it is not an opinion however that they are both incredibly inconsistant and illogical to the Dragon Ball continuity.